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McSorley's bar reads well with literary crowd

Abstract:
New York City has a rich literary history, which isn't only experienced by sitting in a classroom if you're up for a pint in a rustic ale house or even a night of rowdy bar-hopping. So, if you're thirsty for a new place to drink on Thursday nights, and are annoyed that people still actually use that clichéd alliterative phrase, these bars just might be the place for you-especially if you know what 'alliterative' means....

  • Displaying 1 - 19 of 19

Richard McDermott

posted 2/15/08 @ 7:52 AM EST

Nicole LeFebvre has not done her homework.
The tax assesments records in the N.Y.C. Municpal Archives (31 Chambers Street) show that 15 East Seventh Street was a vacent lot through 1858. The William Perris Company insurance maps in the New York Historical Society and the Map Room in the New York Public Library (5th and 42nd) show an empty lot in 1859.The first mention of McSorley's as a drinking establishment in any New York director is 1862. McSorley's is unable to produce any evidence to the contrary -- ask them.
See the New York Times Nov. 19, 1995, September 29, 1996, August 27, 1997. The American Institute (AIA) guide to New York City (latest edition). The Blue Guide to New York City, W.W. Norton 2002. And many others. McSorley's is the Fourth oldest bar in New York City preceeded by The Bridge Cafe, Petes Tavern an Fanelli's Cafe.
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Millard

posted 2/15/08 @ 11:51 AM EST

She has too done it. She cited a source, which is more than most journalists do. While it seems they may have moved the date back to account for Lincoln's Cooper speech, people believe all kinds of apocryphal tales. It's a fantastic bar, and whether it's been there since '58 or '54 hardly matters. It's the agreed upon date, and we know that record keeping in the mid 1800's was hardly reliable.
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Richard McDermott

posted 2/15/08 @ 3:01 PM EST

Apparently if Nicole LeFebvre wrote Columbus discovered America in 1155 Millard would rush to defend her. That is the level of Millard's reasoning in her incoherent reply above. Facts are facts, Nicole did not do her homework and neither did Dr.Walter Raubicheck. Put that in your ale.
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Price

posted 2/16/08 @ 4:41 PM EST

After reading some of McDermott's comments on other sites, I had a look at the records he ballyhoo's.

He gets an A+ in Cherry Picking but a D in accounting.

The tax registers reflect a fiscal year - not a calandar year - 1858 (actualy 1856 if you read the page) represents the tax assesments of 1855, that would be for 1854. The taxes you will owe on April 15 2008 are for your income in 2007. This is a tax accounting, not a taxi meter. If anyone is guilty of taking dictation, rather than researching it is the AIA guide et, al.
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Salvatore

posted 2/16/08 @ 6:07 PM EST

The Columbus voyage is a reach. That event is obviously documented. The age of McSorley's is similarly well documented. It is you who are taking the 1155 (and really, that's a lot farther off than four years) for Columbus in this case. Did you get thrown out of McSorley's or something? I dunno. Seems odd you'd be so hostile to a bar and a poster who points out that -- like Washington chopping down the cherry tree -- it's hardly on the scale of breaking the JFK assassination or the Columbus discovering the new world! hahaha
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Salvatore

posted 2/16/08 @ 6:08 PM EST

The Columbus voyage is a reach. That event is obviously documented. The age of McSorley's is similarly well documented. It is you who are taking the 1155 (and really, that's a lot farther off than four years) for Columbus in this case. Did you get thrown out of McSorley's or something? I dunno. Seems odd you'd be so hostile to a bar and a poster who points out that -- like Washington chopping down the cherry tree -- it's hardly on the scale of breaking the JFK assassination or the Columbus discovering the new world! hahaha
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Pepper

posted 2/16/08 @ 7:11 PM EST

Also, it says "oldest continuously operated saloon," so, places like the Bridge Cafe don't count. It's been under other names, a restaurant, etc.
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Richard McDermott

posted 2/17/08 @ 12:27 PM EST

According to PRICE, the tax people in 1856 knew that 15 East 7th Street would be an empty lot in 1858. The tax assessment records read:1856 Lot Vacant,1857 Lot Vacant, 1858 Lot vacant. PRICE failed to mention the William Perris Insurance Company's maps that show McSorley's site an empty lot in 1859. How about the New York City Directories? McSorley's first appears in them in 1862. There are no other known records from that period that address the opening date of the ale house. Price: you struck out.

SALVATORE seems incoherent with rage (twice). What is he trying to say? A McSorley's ale can be very soothing.

PEPPER is confused about the adjective "continuous". The change of name of a business does not change its occupation if it continues in the same occupation. The Bridge Cafe has been selling booze continuously since 1794.
PEPPER: why didn't any of your colleagues tell you that up to 1910 McSorley's Ale House was named "The Old House at Home"? So, according to your analysis their claim "...don't count.It's been under different names..."
You need two McSorley's ales to recover.
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chris edwards

posted 2/27/08 @ 3:19 PM EST

the writer quoted a source....are you really arguing about a year? let's put this in context here people. talk about blowing things out of proportion. damn
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Iggy

posted 3/08/08 @ 3:59 PM EST

Originally posted by

chris edwards

 the writer quoted a source....are you really arguing about a year? let's put this in context here people. talk about blowing things out of proportion. damn

Amen!

But some people need to blow things out of proportion, or they'd have nothing. This breed deserves our pity, not our scorn.
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Richard McDermott

posted 2/29/08 @ 10:37 AM EST

Is Chris Edwards an alias for Salvatore?
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Salvatore

posted 3/08/08 @ 3:30 PM EST

Originally posted by

Richard McDermott

 Is Chris Edwards an alias for Salvatore?


I can't believe this is still going on. Incoherent with rage? Hahaha. Now who can't take a question. It's nice to throw in the charge, but you've still not explained why it bothers you so. I think we know who has the rage here. They never called it anything but "McSorley's." I dunno. It seems "claims" is good enough for the media, and should therefore be good enough to cover the apocryphal term. If you're going to count on tax assessors, notoriously corrupt in the guilded age, that's your business. Other people choose to believe what's etched in the glass.
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Salvatore

posted 3/08/08 @ 3:50 PM EST

Originally posted by

Richard McDermott

 Is Chris Edwards an alias for Salvatore?



Hmm, I guess you never had a web glitch before that posted twice. I don't see why this is so personal to you. I did a little digging. When someone's in an ametuer organization with TEN vice presidents, and isn't one, it can lead to a shoulder chip. Interesting you didn't mention the following information: "Matthew Maher, the "McSorley's" owner, then hired Bill
Wander, who uncovered more information that contradicted
some of what Richard McDermott claimed. McDermott claimed
that real estate tax records showed that the site was an
empty lot until 1861. Wander found it listed as a brick
building in the 1855 census as well as on a 1856 Perris Map
of the 17th Ward "with a slate or metal coped roof with
stores under." He also found John McSorley on the passenger
list of the "Colonist" in 1851 and his naturalization papers in 1855 (McDermott said that John McSorley didn't come to the US until 1855, but the article I read did not cite a source for this information)."

Didn't cite a source, Mr. McDermott? Tisk, tisk.

The full exchange is here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NYC-ROOTS/1998-10/0908224480

I hope attempting to refute this gives your life a little meaning again. Whoever said "those who can, do; those who can't, teach," sure knew what he was talking about.
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Hippolyte

posted 3/08/08 @ 3:53 PM EST

Originally posted by

Richard McDermott

 Is Chris Edwards an alias for Salvatore?



Hmm, I guess you never had a web glitch before that posted twice. I don't see why this is so personal to you. I did a little digging. When someone's in an ametuer organization with TEN vice presidents, and isn't one, it can lead to a shoulder chip. Interesting you didn't mention the following information: "Matthew Maher, the "McSorley's" owner, then hired Bill
Wander, who uncovered more information that contradicted
some of what Richard McDermott claimed. McDermott claimed
that real estate tax records showed that the site was an
empty lot until 1861. Wander found it listed as a brick
building in the 1855 census as well as on a 1856 Perris Map
of the 17th Ward "with a slate or metal coped roof with
stores under." He also found John McSorley on the passenger
list of the "Colonist" in 1851 and his naturalization papers in 1855 (McDermott said that John McSorley didn't come to the US until 1855, but the article I read did not cite a source for this information)."

Didn't cite a source, Mr. McDermott? Tisk, tisk.

The full exchange is here:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NYC-ROOTS/1998-10/0908224480

I hope attempting to refute this gives your life a little meaning again. Whoever said "those who can, do; those who can't, teach," sure knew what he was talking about.
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Richard McDermott

posted 3/31/08 @ 1:54 PM EST

There is no 1856 Perris insurance map. The 1855 census does not describe buildings or list addresses. Bill Wander lives in the LAND of MAKE BELIEVE. Ask him for evidence to prove his claims about McSorley's. You will find that he has none. I never said or wrote that John McSorley came to the United States in 1855. That was written by New York Times writer Christopher Gray in November 19, 1995. You are clearly a very ignorant person.
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Richard McDermott

posted 3/31/08 @ 1:56 PM EST

There is no 1856 Perris insurance map. The 1855 census does not describe buildings or list addresses. Bill Wander lives in the LAND of MAKE BELIEVE. Ask him for evidence to prove his claims about McSorley's. You will find that he has none. I never said or wrote that John McSorley came to the United States in 1855. That was written by New York Times writer Christopher Gray in November 19, 1995. You are clearly a very ignorant person.
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Ray Price

posted 4/05/08 @ 1:55 PM EST

"Facts are facts" , he says but he continues to cherry pick the ones he likes and reject the ones he doesn't like. Read everything on the page - if there is a taxable commodity in 1858, yet it doesn't appear on your map in 1859, than the map is invalid, a contradiction, - it is a questionable "fact," and not infallible. The tax ledgers simply do NOT say what you claim they say.

"I never said or wrote that John McSorley came to the United States in 1855. That was written by New York Times writer Christopher Gray in November 19, 1995"

Yet you published and presumably edited an article by Rebecca Read Shanor in your own magazine that repeats ". . . John McSorley didn't even set foot on New York soil until 1855." (Spring NY Chronicle, pg 14 .)

In that same issue, let's not forget your gem about Pete's Tavern: where you claimed that the 1892/93 city directory - "This is the first evidence of a drinking establishment on the premises." then you back pedaled to make Pete's 1851 - Magic! Even Pete's says 1864.

I'd say in the land of "Make believe" you're the King!
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Richard McDermott

posted 4/06/08 @ 5:22 PM EST

Note that in Ray Price's comment above there is nothing that refutes the following facts: (1)The tax asssesment records in the N.Y.C. Municipal Archives show that 15 East 7th Street was a vacant lot into 1858. (2)The Perris Insurance Company maps of 1859 show an empty lot in that year at 15 East 7th Street (3)John McSorley does nor appear in any city directory until 1862 at 15 East 7th Street. There are no other existing records from that period that address McSorley's Ale House. What Price has advanced is truly MAKE BELIEVE AND IGNORANCE.
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Lisa Basile

posted 4/07/08 @ 3:10 PM EST

As the editor who assigned this story, I assure that we believed our sources of information were legitimate. In no way did we mean to provide questionable information. We apologize for any confusion regarding details or semantics.

We thank you for your time and enthusiasm.

Lisa M. Basile
Features Editor
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